(MENAFN- Afghanistan Times) Former Afghan President Hamid Karzai's interview with CGTN
Yang Rui hosted the interview in (Dialogue)
Host: Welcome to our program your Excellency.
Hamid Karzai: Good to see you.
Host: What is your mission?
Hamid Karzai: I have been busy as I was busy on issues
before that, trying to bring peace to Afghanistan. Trying to have a nice
country in Afghanistan and friendly with the neighbors and the rest of the
world. That has been the mission.
Host: Peace is so important for the post war reconstruction
in the war torn country of Afghanistan but how difficult is this process?
Hamid Karzai: It is difficult, unfortunately, because until
recently we never saw any effort for peace in Afghanistan by the United States.
Host: That sounds ridiculous.
Hamid Karzai: Yes. Because they were bent on getting things
through fighting and it was proven not to be working. Extremism with seventeen
years of their war making in Afghanistan did not go away, but increased. On top
of it, also we saw the arrival of the IS in Afghanistan. So it was a futile
exercise with so much cost to Afghanistan, to the region and everybody.
Now just recently the United States has launched a new
initiative for peace in Afghanistan and we hope it succeeds as much as I was
against their war making in Afghanistan, I have now given support to their
peace efforts in Afghanistan. But the latest U.S. initiative for peace in
Afghanistan will bear fruits only when they fully keep the Afghan people on
board, and in charge and when they genuinely seek cooperation from major powers
who are our neighbors. China for example, is our neighbor, and a superpower in
the world. Russia, at the same way, and our neighbors as well. Therefore, a
successful U.S. effort for peace will mean Afghanistan doing its part fully and
independently and the U.S. seeking the cooperation of China that will bring us
peace and I'm sure that if the U.S. extends the hands of cooperation to China,
China will support it and Russia will support it as well.
Host: Do you think Afghanistan could have enough investment
in the reconstruction and where does the investment actually come from?
Hamid Karzai: With peace in Afghanistan, Afghanistan will
have plenty of investment in reconstruction. China will be the first to do
that. China was the first to do that when Afghanistan was more stable some
years ago. China invested nearly $5 billion and even more in a copper field in
Afghanistan. China invested in the oil and gas industries in Afghanistan and
lots of other areas.
Host: What about the return of Chinese investment in your
country? Because our viewers and netizen are so seriously concerned about
business deals. In one hand a humanitarian relief, of course, is part of the
mission and on another hand it is an investment.
Hamid Karzai: Without the slightest doubt, definitely, when
peace returns to Afghanistan, so will be the profits on investment to those who
have invest in Afghanistan. So I can assure the people of China, our friends in
China that with peace in Afghanistan Chinese investment in Afghanistan will
have tremendous returns for China.
Host: A skeptical media in the west would always follow what
happens between India and China. Our Indian friends always say 'look Afghanistan
is part of their turf in the understatement' do you agree?
Hamid Karzai: We are a central Asian country, we are a south
Asian country and we are a west Asian country. We are a central Asian country
because of tremendous civilization links with central Asia and historic links
with central Asia and geographical collection to central Asia. We are a south
Asian country because of tremendous links with south Asia and geographical
links. We are west Asian country because of our historic links with Iran, the
language, the religion and all that. We are also very much part of the Chinese
collection. China is a neighbor of Afghanistan. China has more than 85km border
with Afghanistan in the north-east of the country. So we are nobody's turf. We
are a country of our own and we have relationships of our own. We want of
tremendously good relationship with India and India has been a tremendous help
to Afghanistan. But we are also a good friend of China and China has been a
great friend of Afghanistan, so what we seek is cooperation on Afghanistan not
competition on Afghanistan.
Host: Let's look at the role of a Pakistan. We have
Pakistani Taliban and the Taliban in Afghanistan and basically for the Chinese
viewers they have no idea about the relationship between these two Taliban
organizations. Obviously Islamabad is part of the peace process.
Hamid Karzai: Islamabad is very much part of the peace
process because it is very much part of the problem as well. The reason is that
the United States and Pakistan unfortunately historically have been together
promoting extremism in Afghanistan. This has been the Soviet Union invade in
Afghanistan. The Americans in order to weaken and defeat the Soviet Union,
planned to use religious extremism as a
tool against the former Soviet Union and Pakistan and some Arab countries
unfortunately joined hands with the United States in the promotion of extremism
in Afghanistan with massive costs for the Afghan people and eventually for the
region and for Pakistan itself. The
Pakistani people have now suffered as closely as much as Afghans have suffered.
So there is tremendous reason for Pakistan for its own safety and security for
its own prosperity to begin to distance itself from the use of extremism and
cooperate with China and Afghanistan.
Host: Everybody knows in this country that Pakistan remains
an old friend of China for years. On the one hand Beijing attaches a great
importance to the post war reconstruction in your country as I said earlier. On
the other hand you said Islamabad is part of the problem there. But this is
contradictor against each other. How can Islamabad say one thing and do
another?
Hamid Karzai: This has been happening for a long time,
saying some thing and doing another thing. But on the question of China's friendship
with Pakistan, China and Pakistan being always friends, we see it as a
positive, we see it as good. We want China's friendship with Pakistan to
expand, to deepen. We are also a great friend of China and a good neighbor of
China. And China has been a tremendous ally and supporter to Afghanistan as
well. Therefore, Chinese friendship with Pakistan, we see, as an asset towards
positive. And for this reason, we have been seeking China's participation and
contribution to improve relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and
together all the three of us, effectively fighting against extremists.
Host: And do you think Afghanistan has fallen victim to the
competition, or regional competition between Islamabad and New Delhi?
Hamid Karzai: Yes, it has unfortunately very much. It has
fallen victim to that competition.
Host: In which way?
Hamid Karzai: In ways
of negative forces activated in Afghanistan both ways. We are also victim of
our strategic location and circumstances. Because China is our neighbor and
China is a superpower and the second biggest economy in the world and soon
going to be the first economy of the world and Russia another superpower and a
neighbor of Afghanistan and there is Iran, so the presence of the United States
many consider to be in relationship to that strategic location of Afghanistan
and the way they have conducted themselves to us visibly a presence in order to
watch or do things in the neighborhood that extremely important to them as
well. That has negative fallout for Afghanistan so we proposed to the United
States that the only way that they can stay safely in Afghanistan and for
longer term it is for them to be a cooperative mood with China and Russia that
negative competition will not make their stay in Afghanistan viable.
Host: Your Excellency, now both Pakistan and India had been
recruited by the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. From the point of view of
an observer in Kabul what do you think of this platform of SCO in addressing
the regional issues because SCO is such an important part in peace and
stability particularly in the process of development in central Asia which is
important part of the Eurasian continent or strategy. So what do you make of
the SCO place in cementing the solidarity of the local powers?
Hamid Karzai: Very important. The Shanghai Cooperation
Organization is an effective instrument for stability and cooperation in our
larger region. And we're glad that all the three major powers of the region
China, Russia and India, are part of it. So is Pakistan, so are countries of
central Asia — Turkey as well and Iran. And Afghanistan is an observer. So
India's joining the SCO, we see it as a positive development and we hope that
through the cooperative working within this organization, Afghanistan will be
one of the first beneficiaries of SCO.
Host: And what do you think of the partnership between
Moscow and Beijing? Because Russia and China reach out to each other through
the SCO, which as I said earlier is an important part of the Eurasian vision
and the president Putin calls for the implementation of his Eurasian economic
union. We have the belt and road initiative. These two bring vision from the
two politician Mr. Xi Jinping and his Russian counterpart had been integrated
with each other is not necessarily a conflict. Right?
Hamid Karzai: We attach high value to Chinese Russian
cooperation and friendship not only for the stability of Eurasian, central
Asian, south Asian and west Asian region but also for global balance and
stability. So it is a very different scale of relationship the Chinese Russian
relationship regionally and globally.
For Afghanistan we are by all standards a very keen observer of the
Chinese Russian friendship and cooperation. We believe that this cooperation is
one of the best hopes for us, and for the return of peace and stability in
Afghanistan.
Host: Very quickly. Your Excellency, do you think of the
special strategic partnership between Moscow and Beijing together will be an
effort to tip the balance across the pacific ocean or the Indo-pacific ocean
because president Trump and his team vow to launch a kind of campaign that may
not necessarily be compared in parallel to the cold war. But from the beginning
of the trade Standoff as well as other efforts to restrict the influence of
China by the Trump administration. Do you believe China and Russia taking side
together will help restrict the assertiveness and ambition of Washington at
this moment.
Hamid Karzai: Well, effectively we are in a cold war. We are
already there. We are already in a new world order. We are already in a
multipolar order. We are not moving that direction. We are already there. China
is now a confirmed global power. Russia is a confirmed global power. India is
rising as well, so we are already in a multipolar setup. Now the Chinese
Russian cooperation on global strategic issues is definitely a balancer and a
shifter in the power play that we share on. Yes. To answer it positive Chinese
- Russian relationship does have impacts in that regard.
Host: And of course Chinese leaders will do whatever they
can do to avert a repeat of a cold war while we seek to pursue an inclusive
world economic order not necessarily at the cost of the existing one.
Hamid Karzai: Yes.
Host: Let's take a closer look at a very embarrassing issue.
That is drawn scathing criticism from the western media about our western
frontier Xinjiang Muslims they are brothers and sisters.
Hamid Karzai: They are.
Host: But the way we help maintain the stability in Xinjiang
through a lot of attention from the world media. I am not taking about all Muslims but the
extremists among the Muslims may constitute a threat to the stability of this
region in China. So do you think in Afghanistan you would join hand with China
in partnership with India and particularly Pakistan to nip it in the bud before
we have the rise of Islamic extremism to threaten the stability in this part of
the world?
Hamid Karzai: As I mentioned earlier religious extremism was
a tool used by United States and some of its allies, unfortunately, Pakistan as
well and trying to weaken and defeat the former Soviet Union that tool
continued to be used as well in Afghanistan and that is why we don't see a
defeat of extremism and terrorism. Had there been genuinely an intention to
defeat extremism, it would have been defeated by now because the whole world
cooperated with the United States. So the fact that it didn't happen, the fact
that the war continued means that, that was not the intention.
Now clearly there is a difference between Islam and
religious extremism. Islam is a victim of religious extremism. Muslims are
victim of religious extremism. With regard to China, with regard to the use of
religious extremism against China we are aware, we are a witness to that in Afghanistan
we have seen that in Afghanistan. We cooperated with China in stemming in the
bud extremism that was affecting China. And it will be an ideal situation as
you mentioned if China, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan could work together and
that will definitely be a shifter in the balance against extremism if it would
happen and we will welcome it.
Host: Now, let us know more about Pashton, a major tribe in
your country. Do you think the new government that was somehow put there by
Americans and the NATO could only account for a minor part of the territory?
For the major part of your map in Afghanistan they are under the control of the
Taliban and behind the Taliban is the major tribe of Pashton.
Hamid Karzai: With
the arrival of the United States and the NATO in 2001-02 after the tragedy of
September 11, for the first time the majority of the Afghan people welcomed a
foreign force in our country in order to help free ourselves from a creeping
invasion and from extremism and from all of that taking our territory,
Al-Qaida, some of those elements and the reason the United States succeed
initially was for two distinct factors. One the support of the Afghan people,
two the support of the larger international community, the whole of the United
Nations and specially our big neighbors. China for example was a tremendous
supporter with the United States initially and it continued for a long time in
Afghanistan. But when the war continued and when specially the Islamic State
arrived in Afghanistan, then suspicions emerged as to why and how come, rather
than seeing results toward the positive against extremism we see more of
it.Today yes, more territories under the hands of the Taliban, but the Taliban
are not belonging to one ethnic group in Afghanistan. No. We have them now in
many parts of the country. We have them now in northern Afghanistan, in north
eastern Afghanistan and around the capital of the country. It may seem like one
ethnic group supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan, but no, the fact is that now
they have elements in all the ethnic groups of Afghanistan. They are a local
force now.
Host: Let me go back to the issue of the Taliban in
Pakistan. Now right after the September 11 that the terrorist attacks occurred
in Washington and New York, Islamabad came under fire and huge pressure from
Washington urging politicians in this country to take side. Armitage deputy
secretary of state said you either take side with us or you will be bombed back
to the Stone Age, so the economy of Pakistan plunged as result of taking side
with United State. Pakistan paid a heavy price so it might not be fair to say
that Pakistan is part of the problem and I have interviewed Mr. Musharaf at
least twice and he said along with other senior politicians in this country
that Pakistan was a victim of terrorism and for fighting terrorism. So what do
think of their concerns?
Hamid Karzai: The people of Pakistan no doubt are victims of
terrorism. The government of Pakistan, the military establishment of Pakistan
has been hand in hand with the United State of America in promoting extremism
in Pakistan and in the region. They did it together. As I mentioned they were
allies, when the Soviet Union came to Afghanistan, Pakistan and the United
States were allies. And then that alliance they designed the use of extremism
to defeat the Soviet Union.
Host: But at the same time Islamabad complained bitterly
that the United States failed to honor their pledge to provide the country with
economic and military assistance.
Hamid Karzai: That is a different side of their
relationship. There are too many sides to their relationship. There are certain
facts. Fact number one: the government of Pakistan and US were together in the
promotion of extremism, religious extremism, in that region in Afghanistan
specially.
Host:But too many Pakistani army were killed by extremists.
How could they take side with the terrorists?
Hamid Karzai: They did and that was a consequence of it.
Host: And since it was allowed by President Musharaf and his
successor to try to eliminate all the terrorists in the mountainous areas.
Hamid Karzai: Those that were affecting Pakistan were tried
to be eliminated but those who were hurting Afghanistan were supported.
Host: And the authorities in Islamabad they are clearly
aware that without eliminating the elements of instability or terrorism, it
would be absolutely impossible for the two sides, Islamabad and Beijing, to
construct the China-Pakistan economic corridor which is an important part of
the belt and road initiative. How could the authorities in Islamabad be part of
the problem?
Hamid Karzai: Exactly! Now this is the area that we hope a
vision will emerge. For the prosperity of Pakistan, for the prosperity of the
region, for the one belt one road project succeed Pakistan needs to clearly
distance itself from any policies within Pakistan or in cooperation with beyond
Pakistan that will promote extremism. Rather Pakistan should join hands with
China effectively in combating extremism and Afghanistan will be happily and
willingly a part of that.
Host: If possible I would convey your message of goodwill to
the ambassador of Pakistan and their politicians in my interviews.
Hamid Karzai: Please do.
Host: By the way Pakistani foreign minister Shah Mahmood
Quraishi said in December that Pakistan is always keen to have China to be part
of efforts for the Afghan peace process and he is glad if the Chinese playing a
more active role for Afghanistan's development and reconstruction. What do make
of his remarks?
Hamid Karzai: We welcome those remarks. Those are good
remarks and we support those remarks and we would also like to be part of
Chinese efforts for stability in Afghanistan and in Pakistan and we would like
three countries to work together led by a Chinese initiative.
Host: Thank you very much for your goodwill vision and
friendship. I do enjoy and appreciate this conversation with you as I did
before.
Hamid Karzai: Thank you sir. Good to talk to you.
MENAFN2001201901690000ID1097998840